Accidental Hedonist - DC Foodies vs. Carole Greenwood

DC Foodies vs. Carole Greenwood

01/02/06, by Kate Hopkins

3622 views • Categories: Food Blogs

Now this here is a bit o' interestingness...

It seems as if Jason at DC Foodies has had a run in with Buck's Camping and Fishing chef and owner Carole Greenwood. While eating dinner, he took some pictures of the food (as food bloggers are wont to do), which caused the chef to come out during dessert and discuss the legalities of picture taking. Aside from that, it appears as if Jason enjoyed the meal.

That is, until Carole Greenwood's Lawyer sent a cease and desist letter. From the letter:

Dear Sir:

Please be advised that my client, Buck's Camping and Fishing, has requested that I contact you with a demand that you cease and desist from showing any pictures that you may have taken of the food and facilities of the said restaurant.

Carole Greenwood can be a pain in the tuckus to her customers, or at least so says Washington Post writer Tom Sietsema, so this outburst should not be that big of a surprise.

But it does beg the question, should a restaurant patron be able to take pictures of the food in a restaurant? Or is the mere look of the food proprietary, as Chef Greenwood would claim?
Of course, the folks at eGullet are all over it, with the best answer so far coming from writer cdh:

Copyright law is pretty clear that the pictures you take are yours and only yours. If the chef has any copyrightable subject matter that you took a picture of, then you might need rights, but I really doubt that the composition of a dish on a plate is copyrightable subject matter... (probably too utilitarian, though it might be artistic enough, and consequently a potentially very expensive issue to litigate... if she can afford the fight herself...)

So, you, as an invitee on the restaurant's property are licensed to be there subject to their conditions, one of which might be that you don't use a camera. If your license to be on the property expires because you use your camera, you might be liable to the owner of the property for trespassing on their land (damages are usually minimal)... but the pictures are still yours. You definitely own the copyright to the pictures, and unless you agreed to a nondisclosure agreement you can probably do with them as you please.

Personally, I have no issue with taking pictures at a restaurant, as long as I don't ruin other people's eating experience (I no longer use flashes on my camera at a restaurant). But I'm also biased, because word on the street is that I'm a food blogger.

Can anyone provide better information on this?

Technorati Tags: Food and Drink, Food Blogs, Ethics, Carole Greenwood

Permalink • 20 comments

Comments, Pingbacks:

Comment from: Penny [Visitor] · http://www.BostonZest.Com

Take a look at this article on photographer's rights. He has a downloadable copy you can use.

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

It does say that property owners can prohibit photography on thier premises.

Perhaps we should take our plates outside to photograph them. (VBG)

Penny

Permalink 01/02/06 @ 18:48

Comment from: jen [Visitor] · http://www.lifebeginsat30.com

Interesting post Kate - do you have time to put a pointer to it on Food Blog Scool? If no, I will do it tomorrow @ some point.

Permalink 01/02/06 @ 19:26

Comment from: Barbara Fisher [Visitor] · http://www.tigersandstrawberries.com/

Lots of people who do not blog take pictures in restaurants, especially if it is a holiday or birithday or anniversary or whatever.

The chef needs to stay in the kitchen and cook and keep out of the dining room and away from customers. If I was her partner, I'd want to smack her in the back of her rude head.

It is all ego and paranoia.

I bet that Sietsema will cover this in some way.

Permalink 01/02/06 @ 20:34

Comment from: mischef [Visitor] · http://chefjoanna.blogspot.com/

In october, I went to alinea, tru and topolobambo... three of Chicago's finest restaurants, and I took photos of every course. (and you know I took pix of every single one of those 25 courses at alinea!!!)

At each restaurant, I asked the server if it was ok to take pix. EACH time I was told yes, however at alinea I was preemtively asked to not use the flash when other were seated in my section. So I didn't. no big deal.

Heck, I even forgot my camera at Alinea (darned food-induced coma!) and they held it for me, without erasing the photos. gasp. LOL.

Unless there was something in writing, or a server mentioned it, there's no way that a diner could know that photography was not allowed.

Shame on the restaurateur for being a schmuck.

Permalink 01/02/06 @ 21:26

Comment from: Tana [Visitor] · http://smallfarms.typepad.com

I'm solidly in the "shame on the chef" camp.

Permalink 01/02/06 @ 21:46

Comment from: Raspberry Sour [Visitor] · http://sourpatch.wordpress.com

Sounds like a whole lot of bad publicity over nothing. At any rate, even if photography is prohibited on the premises, the ownership of the photos should be a different matter.

If it was really such a problem, you'd think the chef would simply request that he not take photographs in the future (and perhaps instruct the waitstaff to be a little more vigilant in their monitoring of the customers). But you can't argue with ego.

Permalink 01/02/06 @ 21:53

Comment from: foodcrazee [Visitor] · http://foodcrazee.blogspot.com

So far, we have not had this problem in Malaysia as i guess most of us r not really into the rights anyway. So, we are thankful actually.

Kinda confusing abt the law...

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 04:49

Comment from: Ivonne [Visitor]

This past June I went to Chez Panisse and took pictures of every course they brought. I didn't get any complaints.

This just looks bad on the individual and on the restaurant!

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 05:20

Comment from: Barbara (Biscuit Girl) [Visitor] · http://yougonnaeatallthat.blogspot.com

We've heard of her harshness as well as several other chefs here in the DC area. I think it's a shame that their over-inflated egos get in the way of everything else.

We've taken pictures at many places and never had a problem from the owner, chef or other staff. These places included Rays the Steaks, Andale, Tempt Asian, Joe's Noodle House.

Rather than take the offensive why not offer to talk to the blogger about the article. Ask them if they liked the meal. Let the blogger ask them one or two quick questions. It wouldn't take any less time to do this than it would to stand there and bitch someone out in front of all the other customers. And, it woiuld make a much better impression.

That't my two-cents worth.

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 05:54

Comment from: Juliette Rossant [Visitor] · http://www.superchefblog.com/

As an author of previous and forthcoming books and as a publisher of a blog, I use images for both commercial and non-commercial publications and so have come to the following conclusions regarding the issue of blog publication of food images:

(NB: This is not legal advice!)

1. If you buy food at a restaurant and wish to photograph it, the food is yours to photograph -- the images for your own personal use, just as the food is.

2. Were you to resell that food, you should cite where it comes from, just as any smart buyer should ask you (who are not a chef, let's assume) where the food comes from. To ensure regular sales, you would most likely try to enter into an agreement with the maker [chef] to get wholesale costs and thus lower your own market price. Of course, the chef or restaurant could refuse to deal with you on such a basis.

3. If you publish a photo, whether commercially or not, you are using the photo publicly. In the case of a blog, which is effectively non-commercial (remember any advertising, however), I recommend that if you publish such a photo, you mark up the image with Name or Title and Alt which cites the food item's name and the restaurant or chef, that you hyperlink to the a web site of page by the chef or restaurant, and that you send a copy or hyperlink of the article to the chef or restaurant about what you have done. That tells the restaurant that you are crediting them for the image (ever see that term below an image "courtesy of"?), while it gives the chef or restaurant the opportunity to tell you, no, we do not want that image published in public [redundancy intended]. If they tell you no, you should respect their wishes, regardless of how courteously you cite them. After all, you probably did not tell them as you bought the food, hey, I'm going to photograph and publish this dish.

Law -- especially commercial law -- may be verbally abstruse (see!), but if you can manage the language, it usually reflects commonsense -- it's just way over-seasoned with legalese.

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 08:07

Comment from: linechef007 [Visitor]

Well said, Juliette: your follow-up article on Super Chef blog was even better. I'm going to post this on Jason's DC Foodies site right now. If bloggers like him want an audience, then they have to act responsibly. And you seem to have the simplest, most straightforward approach.

(Hey, just read the bio on your personal webiste that says you're a professional journalist and started the Celebrity Chefs column in Forbes magazine, in which case let me thank you further for injecting some profesionalism into the blogosphere.)

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 11:10

Comment from: Barbara Fisher [Visitor] · http://www.tigersandstrawberries.com/

Yes, Juliette's method is professionalism personified, however, the way in which chef Carole Greenwood handled her complaint was not particularly professional.

Juliette's advice does not cover what to do when a chef comes out of the kitchen to berate a customer in public.

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 11:49

Comment from: Chef Tony [Visitor] · http://www.diningandwining.typepad.com

Unfortunattely only in america...

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 14:07

Comment from: stephen [Visitor] · http://www.stephencooks.com/

I don't take pix in restaurants because I don't cover restaurants in my blog, and if I want to remember the dish or plating I just make a few notes.

However, I'm wondering why, instead of getting all legalistic about "who owns the picture," it wouldn't work to just explain that you would like to take pix for a blog post about the restaurant, ask for permission, and abide by the answer? (It might help to have a business card for the blog.)

Isn't this what print journalists/photographers do? I don't think there's any reason bloggers should act like furtive guerilla media types, or be at all sneaky or confrontational about what we are doing -- and if we do, why be surprised if the restaurant owner feels defensive?

Soon enough we will have all the power that print media has today, so maybe we we should just start now to act responsibly as legitimate members of the media.

Maybe I'm missing something, since I'm not trying to cover restaurants...

Permalink 01/03/06 @ 17:18

Comment from: Tana [Visitor] · http://smallfarms.typepad.com

DCFoodie's wife wrote about this on her blog, and it's pretty darned funny.

There is also a very good (and informed) discussion at the DonRockwell.com forum for DC folks (and, well, other people like me who are simply fans of Rocks and his clan).

Permalink 01/04/06 @ 07:58

Comment from: ExtraMSG [Visitor] · http://www.extramsg.com

I take a lot of photos at restaurants. I have had a few places that weren't truly restaurants ask me to stop. A bakery, a couple markets, etc. Usually markets are the most sensitive. eg, Whole Foods gets really pissy. I've had several managers at ethnic markets tell me to stop.

In my experience, the best rule of thumb is that it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission because given the opportunity to say no, people will just because they don't know you and are naturally suspicious.

The only experience at a full on restaurant I've had where I was told to put the camera away was Aguila y Sol in Mexico City. One of the creepiest dining experiences ever and I'm still really pissed about it 7 months later.

It's a very chic restaurant where all the servers and the owner/hostess all speak impeccable English. I had already taken pictures of all my courses at Izote, Patricia Quintana's restaurant, to the owner's delight. I wasn't using a flash or anything and they quickly swooped down on me as soon as they saw the camera. I should have tried to be more sneaky. Not only that, I was trying to take notes and the owner came up to me and insisted that I put those away as well. They wouldn't let me have a menu and promised to send me one, but never did. I seriously hate that place. Only meal of my trip that I have almost no notes, etc. Food was better at Izote anyway.

Permalink 01/04/06 @ 11:10

Comment from: lakat18 [Visitor]

To me, it's exactly like sports. (And I love food about a billion times more than sports.) You may be talented, but if you can't be civil you shouldn't be celebrated. There is a difference between being an "artiste" with a bit of attitude and being a colossal jerk. It wouldn't be worth it to me to line a nefarious chef's pockets regardless of the alleged quality of the food.

Permalink 01/09/06 @ 15:36

Comment from: dash [Visitor]

i don't know the chef, but it sounds like the rest of you could stand a trip back to charm school. when you're in a restaurant, you're in that chef's house as it were--yeah, take the fig leaf of it being a public place if you must, all the worse for your sense of manners. Real news people know you can take pix from the curb of anyplace but really need to get permission once you're on private property. That's just standard practice. And the law--you really gotta go there?--is no substitute for decency.

Permalink 02/09/06 @ 15:02

Comment from: adrian [Visitor] · http://forartandajob.blogspot.com

I met Carole Greenwood last night after a great meal. Some one had mentioned that I was a blogger and she joked that I "please don't take any pictures." I was confused and she filled me in. So my take--though I am full of delicious mozeralla bias:

1. respect a chef. we pay good money for our food but you pay to eat it, not grab its platonic representation and post, post, post.

2. if you want to take a picture that represents the meal you just imbibded well, don't use a cruddy camera phone to do so. if i reviewed your blog on my site, paraphrasing you inaccuartely and misrepresenting your writing, surely we wouldn't get along. a cell phone's not gonna begin to depict these meals fairly given to the fact that its first job is to be a cell, not to mention resturant lighting and flash fill and so on.

3. i believe copies of professional photos were offered afterwards. take them. if you don't believe they accurately represent the meal you ate, don't.

4. Carole was part of what many DC bloggers cite as the origins of the art blog, five things. http://homepage.mac.com/supertwist/5things/index.html she's one of us. and she's a damned good chef.

Permalink 02/09/06 @ 21:17

Comment from: Jadxia [Visitor] · http://www.iricchi.net

As both a manager in a restaurant and a photographer, I'd like to offer a little clarity.

LEGALLY: You may take pictures of food, but not of people, and those pictures are yours to keep. In most instances, they cannot confiscate your equipment or the pictures, the one exception being if signs are posted on the property prohibiting photo taking or equipment. However, legally, they are also allowed to refuse to service if they want and throw you off same property. They don't have to be nice about it when they boot you out, either.

COURTESY: It's rude to sneak in and take pictures, especially if you are using a flash because then you are disturbing other diners. Rather, talk with the general manager, or better yet, the owner, and either ask for pictures or ask to take pictures beforehand. Most times, they are happy to provide food pictures just for the publicity, and they can't stop you from writing whatever you want about the restaurant.

So in this instance, what is LEGAL and what is POLITE may differ slightly. Politeness, in my opinion, usually is always the best bet.

Permalink 08/16/06 @ 13:23

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